| Impact Analysis and Study for Fiberglass Vintage Goalie Masks |
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| October 22nd, 2008. |
| Questions & Answers (page 2): Question: From Bert J. You had stated in your study that a direct impact at 80 MPH to the nose or just under the nose of a Higgins style mask would most likely loose teeth and break your nose. Is this your opinion or is there somes facts to go along with this? Answer: Bert, there is no doubt that it is our opinion. However, we do have supporting data and facts to back up our opinion. Firstly, the data pressures recorded were of significant values to cause severe damage. Secondly, we are comparing the recorded values to existing events. A very good and long time friend of our's was wearing a form fit Higgins style mask. He took a shot from approximatley fifty feet away. Unfortunatley the puck impacted directly off the nose of the mask. He lost 3 teeth, fractured his cheek bone, broke his nose and somewhat blackened both his eyes. Contributing factor is he was using limited padding. We believe if he had of been wearing that same mask with at least 1/4 inch sports padding then his injury's would have been significantly reduced. Question: From Bert J. What, in your opinion, is the best option if someone was going to wear a vintage fiberglass goalie mask? 1 - Type of mask, 2 - type and thickness of padding, 3 - eye cut-outs and other equipment required. Answer: Bert, Firstly I would not wear a Higgins. The full Fibrosport model like the last mask Parent used or a Harrison Gary Smith Jets style would be my choice. If the Higgins fits properly the your neck area is way to exposed. The Fibro or Harrison will provide somewhat better protection to the neck area along with we believe better protection from impact injury. I would not wear a vintage mask without at least 1/4 inch top quality sports padding. (Note full padding) not just a strip or 2 here and there. The mask also must be well fitting. The eye cut-outs should be as small as possible. I wear two different vintage masks, on both I have installed a modified chin cup for a little added protection and stability. Also wear a full size back plate, leave nothing exposed to the elements. If you are ordering a mask then ask for a back plate that is sized to the mask. Not just the vintage size. Definetly wear a neck guard the best you can buy and make sure your accident insurance premiums are paid up. Please note that this is my opinion and I again urge you and every perspective user to obtain as much information as possible. Question: From Mark I'm curious, how many people actually wear a vintage mask to play goal in? I cannot imagine it being a large number. Answer: Mark, from the people I know personally and the clients I have sold masks too I would say the number is fairly small, that being about fifty. There is certainly a few more outside my circle. If I had to hasard a guess probably less than 500. However, if you asked, how many people have tried at least once to wear a vintage goalie mask then I would guess it would be in the thousands. Some people try it and get addicted, others try it and say "that was real neat" but I think I will wear my cage. Question: From Old School Do you have any idea what Don Scott is doing these days? I think his masks in his earlier years were one of the best if not the best. I still have a couple of his masks from the late 90"s and still going strong. How long have you been making masks and what got you started? If you had to buy a mask who would you buy a mask from and in what order? Answer: Old School, I have no idea what Mr. Scott is doing these days. He made some fabulous masks, I too have a couple of them. In 1995 I was developing parts for robotiic projects made of fibreglass. I was asked, by a very good friend, if I could reproduce some parts out of fibreglass for his vintage cars, that were unavailable. So I began making a number of different car parts. During that same time I was approached to make a couple of masks for a theater play here in Edmonton. Then one thing lead to another and I was making goalie masks. Between 1995 and 2000 I only made about eighteen or twenty masks. The first ones were extremely terrible. I had made moulds from the two masks I had played in that I retrieved from my mothers storage trunk. In 2000 I become very ill. The doctors believed it was allergies related to the plastics and resin materials I was using both for the car parts, masks and the robotic parts. Over the next few years I had made a few masks, mostly paint jobs and different cage masks. With the introduction of new resin's I found a combination that I can work with without ill effects. I had purchased a number of masks over the years and then in 2005 with encouragement from friends and family I began making them more on a frequent basis. It is very hard to say who I would buy a mask from. If Gary Smith was still making masks he would probably be my choice and then Don in his earlier years of making masks. Question: From Dee If you were to do this exact same study using masks made by a different maker do you think the results would have changed considerably? Have you had a chance to read the Hockey News Greatest Masks? Some of the replicas in there are terrible and what is this I read that a Dryden was unavailable 10 years ago, I got one from Don Scott back then. Answer: Dee, I do not believe that the results would have changed considerably if the same study criteria was followed. They probably would have changed somewhat. However, I do not believe they would have changed enough to produce a new view or belief in the study results. As for the Hockey News I have not had an opportunity yet to read it. Question: From MaskCrazy This study is exceptional, interesting and informative. I particularly like your candor. I am one of the few that actually wear a vintage mask. I did attempt once to wear my mask without padding (actually thin strips were placed in the mask) the results from only one impact was enough for I to realize that it was absurd to be endangering my good health. I use thin gel pads on the inside of my masks. They are very effective and I believe they are much better that the sports padding available today. Just a thought for your next study if you are doing one maybe collect data using these as one of the criteria. Answer: MaskCrazy, email me a pic or the product information on the gel pads. I am curious. Thanks Question: From The Bear Finally there is some understanding or something to knaw on regarding this issue of fibreglass pasted on your face. I was always told that you had to (it was a must) to have your face moulded and a mask made from that mould if you were going to wear a full fibreglass vintage mask. Correct me if I am wrong, you have other options from what I am reading. Also, could you email me the product information on the sports padding that you used in the study? Answer: Bear, firstly your best option (not the cheapest) is to have a moulded mask made and apply padding as we have indicated. The other we believe if a mask fits well and the padding is applied properly then you can get away with wearing one that is not moulded. From our information and results you will have similar protection at half the cost. Ultimately it comes down to properly placed padding and finding a mask that fits your head and facial features. Again please take some time and review all information you can obtain. There are many different views and do not rely on popular belief. I have emailed your padding data info. Question: From Glen No Teeth I have just came aross your site while I was surfing for a new catchers mask. My question is do you think that a puck would have the same impact pressures as a baseball? There is a reason for this question. I bought what I believe is a higgins style vintage mask, very well built, to use as a catchers mask. I made the eye holes a little bigger and I fastened a small cage over the eyes. I had a friend do a killer paint job on it and I was the hit of the ball park. I did have padding in the mask, not that much though. As luck would have it, I took a fast ball right off the nose. I didn't loose any teeth, thank god, I did have some dental work to repair the damage and a visit to the doc to fix my nose. My jaw and forehead were sore for a week. So when I came across your study page and reviewed your results it was very much the same as my incident. Answer: Glen, I have no idea but I would think a baseball would be a little less forgiving than a puck. However, I hope you are not still using that mask, killer paint job or not. Interesting info! If you get a chance send me a pic of that mask, luv to see it. Also do you know who made the mask? Question: From I am Canadian EH! I have been playing in goal for a number of years during which time I have never been injured, vintage mask or not. I purchased 3 masks off of EBay, all from different makers. None of these masks wrere moulded to my head or face they were just random purchases from EBay. I am sure there are more goalies just like me that have never had a problem nor an injury. So why are some people so insistent on pushing the notion that a moulded mask is the only way to stay safe? I have padding in all my masks and plenty of it. Answer: Canadian, I believe if you pad a vintage mask well and eliviate all the voids and have maximum surface coverage you really do not need a moulded mask. However, this is of course a personal choice and should be up to the individual that is wearing the mask. Everyone is entitled to their views and choice. I do not believe anyone is pushing anything, just individual beliefs. That is why we performed this study, no one could give definitive answers. The most important issue is staying safe and having fibreglass only against your face is simply not safe in my book or by the results from this study. Obviously, your situation works for you and I assume many others. Stay safe! Question: From BBG When you decided to initiate and perform this test was there any other data that you had previous? Also somewhat of the same question, has anyone ever performed a test like this and if so who and how many? It would be interesting to compare and evaluate the results from more than just one. Answer: BBG, we did an extensive search, we were unable to locate or recieve from anyone we contacted any information or data. If there was any test performed similar to this study and test we are not aware of it or did we have any previous data from such. The only information that we had was of course popular belief and personal views. It would certainly be welcomed additional information. Comparing two or even three tests like this would be fabulous and quite informative. If you are aware of any please forward the info. Question: From Casey I tried you chin cup suggestion in my Smith mask, wow that sure works nice. It also keeps the mask out enough so you do not have issues with the nose hiting your body armour. Also cutting the padding out for the vent holes after you install it is much easier and it fills all the area real nice as well. Thanks, do you know where I can get those gel pads? I have a Higgins style mask that I wear for roller hockey, the chin keeps hitting me in the neck and there is no room to install a chin cup, what can I do to help this? Answer: Casey, glad to hear the chin cup worked for you. I emailed you the info on the Gel Pads. As for the Higgins digging into your neck, I have no suggestions other than get a mask the fits you better. Either that replica was not made correctly, too long, or you have a much smaller face. I have seen some people grind down the chin area but that is somewhat dangerous. If you measure your face from the bridge of your nose to the tip of your chin and do the same on the mask or potentially new mask you will be able to find one that is much closer to your size. So if you are going to purchase a new mask to wear and it is not moulded at least get some measurements and find one closer to your size and fit. Question: From HGPPG In the past I have been wearing just vintage masks that I purchased, no exact moulded masks. I want to try and be as safe as possible so I have attempted and just finished doing a face mould with that spray foam you suggested. That works pretty darn good, came out really well. It still gets a little warm on the face but nothing like moulding plaster. This is allot easier and cheaper. What do I do with it now? Can I just pour a positive mould now or do I need to do something else? Also can that positive mould be made into any type of mask? Answer: HGPPG, before you pour anything into the impression make sure it is smooth. Spray the inside with glue and adhere pieces of poly to the impression. Cut the pieces in small strips to avoid any wrinkles. This way the positive mould will be smooth and will not stick to the foam face impression. This face impression can be moulded into any type of mask you are looking for. With the negative impression you can pour as many as you need for as many types of masks you wish to purchase. Question: From King Kirk I play roller hockey and have 2 different vintage masks that I have worn over the past 3 years. I know that a roller puck is lighter than a regular puck but I think the impact would be comparible. The roller puck is lighter but can go even faster than a regular puck. Both of my masks are just off the shelf, nothing special. I fail to see the reasoning around a moulded mask that it is better. Well fitting and padded is just fine in my book. I really do think this is mostly hype about moulded masks. Am I missing something? Answer: Kirk, I do not think your missing anything at all. Question: From Cougar I would not wear a vintage mask if it was not moulded to my face. There is no way in hell that I would just put on any vintage mask made by some chump who doesn't know anything about mask making. I also do not care if there is padding or no padding. Moulded fit mask or nothing and there is noithing wrong with wearinga higgins mask. I have no missing teeth or broken bones. Anyone who thinks different is just a goof. So my question is why are you being such a goof and promoting non moulded fit masks, is it because you are unable to make a real moulded fit mask? Answer: Cougar, as I have indicated previously this is a personal choice that requires compiled information, whether it be personal views, popular belief or test data to make an informed decision to which type, style and fitting one should be wearing. We accomplished a study for our own curiousity and nothing more. The individuals whom have posted questions on this site or even by regular email are all making choices based on the best information available to them. You are obviously a pro moulded fit mask individual and that is great. If it works for you then that is your personal choice and no one should be demeaning you for that choice. However, you should do the same and be a little more dignified. They also, including myself, have a right to make a personal choice without anyone like yourself demeaning that process of evaluation and conclusion. Now, as for calling me a goof, it really does not matter and is not worthy of a resonse. However, most people that have any integrity at all would have at least posted this with their right name and sent it in with a proper email address. So if you have anything further to lend to this discussion please post it with your real name and then we can really discuss the issues at hand. Question: Bradley Stuart Whether anyone agrees with you or not this is a fabulous study and very informative. I am also a pro moulded fit mask person, I have only one mask that was moulded to my features and it works quite well. I do though see what you are saying about a well fitted mask and correct padding. It certainly seems to make sense and it is a very reasonable conclusion from the information that I read in your study. It also is common sense in most respects. Did one mask perform considerabley better than another with full padding? Was there any distinct differences from one mask to another other that what you have already stated? Answer: Brad, the results from the study regarding full padding indicated no distinct differences other than the Higgins on devices G and H, nose and chin. That of course is the result of mask design. The Fibrosport had less overall impact recordings, however it was not substantial in any way other than what has already been stated in regards to the higher impact recordings on the Higgins. The only information not stated is that there were virtually no recordings on G device for the Harrison or Fibrosport. The Harrison did record near the same recordings as the Higgins on device H where the Fibrosport recorded virtually nothing. I believe if any mask is padded correctly the impact pressures should be relatively the same other than contact surface differences from one mask to another. Also just for your information we padded the mould so all three masks had the same padding in the test study. Update: Since we have had a number of queries regarding accumulation of impact pressure recordings (all pressure points additive) we have concluded the following. After further evaluation of the test data (at all speeds and impact points) we have found that all three mask styles recorded similar accumulation of impact pressures in comparison of a moulded fit mask versus a non moulded fit mask. When all pressure points are additive and accumulative all three mask styles were similar in that there was very little difference in pressure recordings from fit and non fit when applied padding was added. Previously we had only compared the data from pressure point to pressure point. However, in a total accumulation of pressure data the Higgins mask recorded the highest overall accumulation in all phases. The Fibrosport style had the least accumulative pressure. Update: Cougar responded with some rude and non factual comments. No he did not leave his real name and email! Question: from Barry Howell Is there that much of an difference in the accumulated impact pressures from the Higgins to the Harrison and Fibrosport.? Are we talking a huge amount, 25% or just a minor increase, 5 to 6%? Answer: Barry, the actual accumulated pressures from the Higgns mask was 12.9 percent higher than the Fibrosport and 6.1 percent higher than the Harrison. Does 12.9 percent constitute huge, it might be or might not, given the right circumstances. The general overall focus of the study was to clear up, in our minds, certain facts. That being fit or non fit, also does the actual style of the mask matter. From our perspective and opinion yes, is does matter. This of course may not matter at all to some individuals. Also remember that not all impacts to a Higgins mask would be 12.9 percent higher. The test percentage could increase or decrease given the location of the actual impact. All we are indicating, by opinion, is the Higgins may cause you more severe injurys then that of the other two masks based on impacts to the mask itself. At present the actual presure readings are being reviewed by an independent professional. Hopfully, from this review we will have some indication of the types and magnitude of injuries that may occur. Question: From Alex Muller I am in the process of buying a vintage mask to use in an adult pick up league (no hit no slapshot). For the past several weeks I have been reviewing as many web sites and info pages as I could. though I have decided on a particular mask I am undecided who I should purchase it from. The price ranges are so different it is particular confusing for the average joe. How can an average joe tell really what he is buying and are all the masks made the same from each mask maker? Also I have seen on Ebay some sellers indicating that there masks are made by the best mask maker out there, how can an average joe again really know? Your opinion on this would be appreciated. Also I have settled on purchasing a Liut style mask with custom colors. Answer: Alex, there are different process's in applying fiberglass. Also there are different resins and bonding agents. The types, combination and quanity of glass used in a lay-up is important. Moreover, the proper resins and bonding agents are critical. In my opinion most of or all of the individuals who are making masks have done their due diligence and are producing masks that are very well made. I have a certain process which utilizes different types and weave of fibreglass coupled with resin's and bonding agents specifically designed for the types of glass I use. There are distinct differences from one mask maker to another and I am sure you can see that when viewing the masks and web pages on line. However, is there one mask better than another, I really do not think so. They are all different and for anyone to say there is one better than another is making a personal assumption and choice. The same we all do when we buy a car, tv, skates, pads etc. It is really a personal choice. You may want a mask that is built like a tank and you are not particulary concerned with the resemblance to a certain vintage mask. Where as others are more interested in the overall feel and look of the mask. Then there are the individuals who are dead set on a certain style of mask. If you are concerned with the process then query the maker on their lay-up and materials. If you are concerned with the overall look and finishes then request detailed pictures. If you are concerned with the fit of the mask (you should be) take some time and perform some detailed measurements or make a facial impression. Buy what your comfortable with. I rarely consider budget when purchasing important items to protect my well being. In closing is one better than the other, again I do not think so. They are all fabulous in what they produce and create. It is what meets your criteria that really counts. Comment: From Ronald Vickers TC, it must be a very small world to have crossed paths with you when both are so very far from home. When I was reading your web page and you asked me what I thought I had no idea that this was you. I really thought you were pulling one over me when you finally announced that this web site was yours. The ongoing discussion with yourself and the intervention by the Engineering students was brillant. Grey Cup day has a way of establishing strange meetings. Eric's passion for old time hockey and vintage masks is amazing. As I had spoken and commented earlier in the coffee shop I think the study is very well done, not without some faults. The overall purpose, results and conclusions are most interesting and supported. There could be and probably is more to conclude from the data you have collected. I hope you will import some of my suggestions and review the data from that perspective. I look forward in recieving your information for review. See you at the game and the brew is on me. We are in the process of building a new mould with 3 different masks. We will be repeating this study, with modifications. The new study will have added phases with purportional levels. The purpose of this study is to add enhanced data, further conclusions and support of the previous theory and conclusions. |
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| Please send your comments or your questions to thomas@thcvintagemask.com We will post the answers and information in this section of the study. |