| Impact Analysis and Study for Fiberglass Vintage Goalie Masks |
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| October 22nd, 2008. |
| Questions & Answers: We will try to post as many questions and answers that are put forth in regards to this Study under this section so all readers have the opportunity to review. Question: From Mark J How can you be sure that the pressures are the same and 100 % accurate to what the puck would be at the speeds you have described? Answer: Mark we are not 100 percent sure that the pressures are identical. We are reasonably sure that the pressures are within plus or minus 5 percent. However, the study was to measure the differential of pressures between phases and mask types. The overall impact pressures were not the focus of this study. We are sure to a plus or minus 1 percent that the differentials are accurate. The enviroment and test equipment was not altered and the equipment was calibrated to the same degree for each amsk and phase of this study. Question: From Brian S Just a thought of mine, was the temperature of your tests done at room temperature or did you have the temperature like it would be at ice level? Also do you think the results would change? Answer: Brian, the above tests were performed at room temp. We did however have an additional phase that we were unable to complete due to equipment failure and time constraints. We actually froze the test impact puck in the freezer over night. We were curious what changes would occur utilizing a frozen puck vs. a puck at room temperature. Unfortunately the test mould broke after only the first few impact recordings. With the mould damaged, to such an extent, we did not believe even after repairs we would be able to trust the data enough to use it in the manner described. It is only my opinion but I believe the results would have changed. Question: From Pete Bouchard I surf the classic mask page quite often and there is some interesting stuff on there. I just finished reading some comments in regards to your study. I am a 3rd year Engineering student and find these articlles and discussion sites quite informative. Could you provide further information on the following? 1 - Back Ground of Study Participants 2 - Criteria that was followed in relation to the performed tasks 3 - Is this study published or will it be published professionally 4 - Is there any recommendations directly related to the analysis Answer: Pete, I will address the criteria first. We obtained the test standards documentation for impact materials testing from an independent labratory. We attempted to follow the test proceedures as best we could. However, there was criteria within the standards that did not apply. We utilized these standards to form our model. The information in the report is not and will not be professionally published. We have made it perfectly clear that the information noted in the study is just that, INFORMATION. It is in no way a recommendation of any kind. The study only states what we do not rocommend. I will again note that we accomplished this study to satisfy our own curiosity and provide some information for discussion and comment. In regards to the participants; Thomas H. Connauton - 35 years experience in the instrumentation, automation and electrical fields - PEC, CET, Mst Elec - designed and invented new high speed innovative robotic sorting machines - designed and invented the first voice activated tri axial robotic sorter to eliminate manually handled mail - designed light weight delivery devices for automated systems utilizing composite materials - designed and implemented multi million dollar automation and electrical systems. - designed Industrial Engineering work sampling study software Randy W. Cook - 40 years experience in design of industrial mechanical systems and the mechanical field - CET in Mechanical - developed and performed numerous test sampling packages and study analysis reports - designed innovative hydraulic systems for automated delivery and sorting systems Brent R - Brent would appreciate if we did not post his name or history in regards to this report due to a possible conflict of interest. Question: From Mark Diahoust Would a Liut style be a better choice that the Fibrosport and would it offer better protection? Answer: Mark, this is a matter of personal preference and personally reviewed information that you should varify. We have done no testing that would indicate that one of these masks was better than the other. My personal opinion is ask as many questions to as many sources as you can possibly locate and buy what you feel is correct and feel confortable in. My personal choice was a Palmateer, it has good sight lines and relatively good protection in the neck area. This style mask also fits quite well to my shape of head and face. Question: From Greg Larsen Is there any future plans in the wind to continue further testing on different masks? It would really be interesting to see a comparison of a mask like the first Cheevers to a Gary Smith Jets mask or even a Liut Style. Answer: Greg, not in the near future. This is extremely time consuming and costly. I am sure we will do some future studies, however what or when we have no idea. Question: From Jed D. Is 1/4 inch padding enough in a mask? Why I ask is can I put 1/4 inch padding in my cage mask? It is a little small. Answer: Jed, We are not indicating nor suggesting that 1/4 inch padding is sufficent. We only used this as a model to determine whether the padding offered a minor or major difference. It is certainly not wise to change the design and structure of a cage mask in any way including the padding. Question: From Crazy in Net I read read on other sites that a moulded mask is pretty much a must if you are going to wear it. Why such a difference in beliefs or opinions? Answer: Crazy, this is a subject that has very little real data to support any theorys or popular beliefs. In our opinion, and note it is our opinion, that wearing a form fit moulded full face fibreglass mask or any vintage fibreglass mask without padding is extremely dangerous. It is also only our opinion that there is very little difference between a form fit moulded mask and a well fitting mask if both are padded correctly. Please understand you cannot don a fibreglass mask that is 2 sizes too big and through a bunch of padding in it. As I stated earlier in Phase three of the Summary (this does not reflect every size of head in every mask type). One needs to be cautious and prudent, However, if you are cautious and prudent you probably will not wear a full face fibreglass mask anyway. Use common sense. Question: From Dan the Man Why did you pick 60, 70 and 80 for test speeds? Answer: Dan we had originally picked 60, 75 and 90. However, we were unable to sustain accurately the 90 MPH speed with our test equipment. Eighty MPH was the highest we could comfortably maintain. Question: From Dan the Man again You have not mentioned any of the differences in speeds. Was there distinct differences from one speed to the other? Or was the same percentages evident at all 3 speeds. Answer: Dan, there were differences. We are reviewing that information and will post it if there is any info pertinent to our initial scope. Question: From Neil Thompson Has there been any other tests like this done? Might be interesting to compare notes. Would some of the major equipment manufactures have info on this? This is a little over my head but interesting stuff. Answer: Neil, from the search that we did we were unable to find any comparable data. I would truly love to see other tests and compare them. I think a series of these tests should be accomplished and then everyone could have some real defined information. If the major manufactures had data like this I am unaware of it. Also I do not believe it would be something they would openly share. :Question: From Gerald H I have been in the fibreglass business for years and I am not familiar with vintage masks. I am familiar with resins and the glass materials available in the market today. My question is, comes from experience, do you think or know if the pressure recorded would change if the resin and glass was subsituted? I read your specs page and you indicate that you use an epoxy type of resin. You may find that you will have increased pressure readings from a harder less flexible resin and also from a heavier weighted glass. Just thought maybe you had considered this or if not it might be some thing to mull around. Answer: Gerald, heck of a question. I have no idea. However, come to think about it the epoxy resin it quite flexible compared to other types of resins. If the surface and structure becomes harder then there would be less energy distributed throughout the mask in itself. You might have a very valid point. Definetly something to think about. Question: From Goalie 4 Ever I think all of this is really hoop la, I have been a goalie for 40 plus years. Not at any level that is serious. All this muddle that you read on these mask sites is no more than personally defined information. The overwhelming majority of Goalie Mask collectors do not really care. Isn't the whole idea in playing hockey is to have fun? My thought on this matter, wear something that is safe, less stress more fun. Answer: Goalie, thanks for your candid views. You may have a point. I have no idea though. Can anyone else help with this. Question: From Harvey I have 5 vintage goalie masks. 3 were made by Don Scott, I have 1 from you and I also have a Fibrosport, not the pro model. I wear all of them except the Fibrosport, just a little to thin for my liking. I have been beaned pretty darn good a number of times and yes I do have them all with full padding. I have an opportunity to buy a Garry Smith Higgins style made mask for about the same as I paid for the others. Is it a good deal and is it a good mask? Answer: Harvey, do not hesitate, buy it. As long as it is not in two pieces. You know what I mean. If you are not going to buy it please tell me who it is so I can buy it. Gary made some awesome masks. Question: From Parent is King Information from past articles and some discussion sites state that there was never a goalie seriously injured in a Fibrosport Mask. Is the Fibrosport mask the superior design in regards to safety? Answer: King, I have also read the articles and I believe that there never was anyone seriously injured wearing a Fibrosport mask, other than eye injuries. If you are a Parent follower you probably already know. There would have to be much further testing to ever post a grand statement like that. Every mask design has their own special features to offer. So too single out one as superior, that is pretty tough to do. Question: From Mask Maker 2 I make goalie masks and I was a little confused how you could make 3 totally different designed masks from the same mould? Answer: Mask Maker, we did the lay-up on the Higgins first, then we built the mould up with moulding clay to make the Harrison. We removed the moulding clay after the Harrison was completed and repeated the operation for the Fibrosport. After all the masks were completed we prepared the mould for the transducers and silicone fillers and cover. WE also removed the inner portion of the mould and the remainder ,approximately 2 1/2 inches in thickness, was what we utilized for the test mould. Question: From Paul Stanley This is very interesting stuff. I couldn't imagine anyone actually wearing one of these masks without some form of padding. Sorry my question is, have you ever used the foam fit process, injection foam? Answer; Paul, I do not believe that injection foam by itself would provide the same degree of protection as a high quality sports padding. I have however filled the voids, areas between the padding, in some of my masks with injection foam. It provides a very nice fitting mask. You can form fit the mask very nice and have protectection covering 100 percent of the inside surface. But I would use as much padding a possible and then fill the rest. Note: It is also a fast and economical way to make a pretty nice face impression for a mould. I have done about 25 using the injection foam and it works quite well. No need for all that plaster, gause and burning your face off. Question: From Des I am starting to play in a beer league with all older guys. The hardest shot would be for sure no more than 60 MPH. Will you be posting some data just for the 60 MPH testing? I am in the process of deciding which vintage mask to buy. Answer: Des, we will be posting some further data and our findings for different speed ranges. However, please remember it is most important to get as much information as possible. Do not rely on one study or one person's opinion. Good Luck Question: From I Luv Goalies I am buying my husband a vintage mask for christmas. Could you tell me is a co poly mask the same as fiberglass? Is it as strong and durable? Would it last the same as fiberglass? Answer: I Luv Goalies, Co Poly and Fibreglass are two very different materials. I have had limited experience with Co poly materials. However, they are quite durable and strong. There is a mask maker that makes Co Poly Masks, I believe his name is Mark Benjamin and you can find him on Classicmask.com. He will probably be able to give you the information you are looking for. If you are able to get the manufactures name of the materials he uses you can get the data sheets off the web. I am sure you can do some comparrisons. Remember to ger as much info as possible. Question: From Bert J. You had stated in your study that a direct impact at 80 MPH to the nose or just under the nose of a Higgins style mask would most likely loose teeth and break your nose. Is this your opinion or is there somes facts to go along with this? Answer: Bert, there is no doubt that it is our opinion. However, we do have supporting data and facts to back up our opinion. Firstly, the data pressures recorded were of significant values to cause severe damage. Secondly, we are comparing the recorded values to existing events. A very good and long time friend of our's was wearing a form fit Higgins style mask. He took a shot from approximatley fifty feet away. Unfortunatley the puck impacted directly off the nose of the mask. He lost 3 teeth, fractured his cheek bone, broke his nose and somewhat blackened both his eyes. Contributing factor is he was using limited padding. We believe if he had of been wearing that same mask with at least 1/4 inch sports padding then his injury's would have been significantly reduced. |
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| Please send your comments or your questions to thomas@thcvintagemask.com We will post the answers and information in this section of the study. |
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